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Autor Tema: Moj "trening log"  (Pročitano 558062 puta)

Van mreže Stevan Čerubdžić

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« Odgovor #45 poslato: April 21, 2016, 10:13:23 pre podne »
Citat
Slicno to sto si napisao mi je pricao profesor na faxu pre par meseci i naravno da ima istine u tome.

u ovome i jeste PROLBEM
sto se nije islo DALJE od osnova,zakljucenih pre 20 god...
Slazem se. Ali eto tome nikad kraja nazalost.
Ima istine u tim nekim osvnovnim stvarima ali daleko je to bilo od dobrog.
Namere su mi iskreno bile malo bezobrazne, pa sam takva pitanja i postavljaoda vidim do koje mere to ide, jer je covek pominjao recenice tipa ako genetski nisi predodredjen za nesto dzaba tezak rad, pa cak i nedozvoljena sredstva, neces IZGRADITI NI GRAM MISICA.
Sve je to borba sa vetrenjacama iskreno.
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Van mreže Pedja_Petrovic

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« Odgovor #46 poslato: April 21, 2016, 10:21:24 pre podne »
Citat
Namere su mi iskreno bile malo bezobrazne, pa sam takva pitanja i postavljaoda vidim do koje mere to ide, jer je covek pominjao recenice tipa ako genetski nisi predodredjen za nesto dzaba tezak rad, pa cak i nedozvoljena sredstva, neces IZGRADITI NI GRAM MISICA.
Sve je to borba sa vetrenjacama iskreno

rec genetika je IZMISLJEN pojam u nedostaku adkevatnog opravdanja za NE UCINJENO ili UCINJENO
ja tako gledam i mogu da na kroz 3 sata predavanja obrazulozim zasto je to tako
Negde sam jednom nesto procitao tipa ,da dzaba hemija,supsi itd ako nema gnetike,i onda se spominje to da necete napredovati ako su i ispunjeni neki uslovi (hemija,hrana ,sups) a receptori ne reaguju adkevatno
TACNO
ali to nije onda rec o GENETICE nego o HORMONALNOM ODAZIVU da to nema blage veze sa genezom!!!

Ja znam ljude koji naravno napreduju lakse i brze ,bolje od nekog drugog
ali do sto on radi,svakako ne znaci da bi radilo na nekom drugom ili petom,ili da to sto radi peti ne bi unazadilo prvog.
Igra je cudna i slozena i treba je razumeti
Najlakse je PRICATI
ja naravno razumem ljude koji predaju jer moraju da rade ono za sta su placeni
To o cemu i sta je pirat napisiao ili sto je taj tvoj rekao je nesto sto je NAPISANO jako jako davno,a to sto se i dalje toga neki drze je samo izraz ili toga sto NE ZELE da idu dalje po tom pitanju i sto ih ne zanima ( u 90% sluajceva je upravo ovo) a,ostatak...ma..

EVO SAMO 0.1%
http://wwwogistra-nutrition-shop.blogspot.rs/2012/03/stvaranje-novih-misicnih-vlakana.html

« Poslednja izmena: April 21, 2016, 10:23:05 pre podne Pedja_Petrovic »

Van mreže Stevan Čerubdžić

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« Odgovor #47 poslato: April 21, 2016, 10:23:55 pre podne »
Tacno tako. U prevodu, ne moze misic genetski da ne raste.(ako su svi uslovi za rast ispunjeni)
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Van mreže Pedja_Petrovic

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« Odgovor #48 poslato: April 21, 2016, 10:33:44 pre podne »
Tacno tako. U prevodu, ne moze misic genetski da ne raste.(ako su svi uslovi za rast ispunjeni)


tacno tako!!!

Van mreže Pirat

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« Odgovor #49 poslato: April 21, 2016, 11:31:33 pre podne »
ok , ali kaok ste dosli do zkljucka da hiperplazija postoji , mislim kojom metodom ... to bi onda sigurno moralo da udje  u neka dokumetna kao i metoda kojom se dolazi kod nje... mislim jer to dokazano samo nekom studijom ili je registrovano novo tkivo ??

Van mreže Pedja_Petrovic

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« Odgovor #50 poslato: April 21, 2016, 11:37:52 pre podne »
ok , ali kaok ste dosli do zkljucka da hiperplazija postoji , mislim kojom metodom ... to bi onda sigurno moralo da udje  u neka dokumetna kao i metoda kojom se dolazi kod nje... mislim jer to dokazano samo nekom studijom ili je registrovano novo tkivo ??

pa zar ti nisam napisao da je REGISRTOVANO multiplicranje vlakana (deljenje/split)
imena naravno su apostluno nevazna u ovoj prici,cak sam ti rekao i u kojim sportovima
A jedan od njih,a kojemu je dokazana hiperplazija je i sam Ian Thorp itd itd itd

Van mreže Pirat

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« Odgovor #51 poslato: April 21, 2016, 01:02:22 posle podne »
Ih Pedjos pricamo o Janu koji je bio eksperiment...

Van mreže Pedja_Petrovic

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« Odgovor #52 poslato: April 21, 2016, 01:14:24 posle podne »
Ih Pedjos pricamo o Janu koji je bio eksperiment...

naravno
ali nije bio eksperiment da se dokaze hiperaolzija
na njemu je radjeno mnogo toga,a hiperplazija rotoratra misica ramena je samo jedan mali segment koji se desio kod njega..
jbg..zaboravio sam kako se zove onaj odbojkas is SAD ciji uzorci su isto uzimani...ista prica

Van mreže Pirat

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« Odgovor #53 poslato: April 21, 2016, 02:08:01 posle podne »
S obzirom da je rame u pitanju , to vrlo lako kod odbojkasa moze biti rezultat neke PRP terapije ... sto oni obicno i rade...

Van mreže Pedja_Petrovic

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« Odgovor #54 poslato: April 21, 2016, 05:49:05 posle podne »
S obzirom da je rame u pitanju , to vrlo lako kod odbojkasa moze biti rezultat neke PRP terapije ... sto oni obicno i rade...

np
upravo hiperplazija
a da sada nabrajam ostale sporiste ,naci ces opet da su neke pro,trt,mrt terpaije i onda jbg..

Van mreže Pirat

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« Odgovor #55 poslato: April 21, 2016, 06:21:35 posle podne »
Ma ok , na kraju nije ni bitno ako se zna koji sistem treninga radi, ishrane i suplementacije, nije ni bitno kako misici rastu , bitno je da rastu :-)

Van mreže Stevan Čerubdžić

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« Odgovor #56 poslato: April 21, 2016, 07:14:59 posle podne »
Ja sam nekako oduvek bio za obe strane, da znam kako bas to tada i zasto bas to tada i u praksi i u teoriji.
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Van mreže Pirat

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« Odgovor #57 poslato: April 21, 2016, 07:33:44 posle podne »
Prp terapija nije trt mrt... radi se odavno za obnavljanje i jacanje mekih tkiva sopstvenim celijama trombocita... daje upravo taj rezultat...(upravo plivaci , odbojkasi pa i rukometasi tako rehabilituju rame) meni samo ni dalje nije jasno kako mozes da dokazes i kojom metodom da li je to novo misicno vlakno, tj. da li je hiperplazirano... kako je moguce videti multipliciranje vlakna ? Nisi valjda mislio preko nmr...? Daj neki link koji opisuje koju su metodu koristili pri toj studiji i evo ja verujem odmah i ulazem izvinjenje ako treba :-)

Van mreže Pedja_Petrovic

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« Odgovor #58 poslato: April 22, 2016, 05:36:38 pre podne »
Prp terapija nije trt mrt... radi se odavno za obnavljanje i jacanje mekih tkiva sopstvenim celijama trombocita... daje upravo taj rezultat...(upravo plivaci , odbojkasi pa i rukometasi tako rehabilituju rame) meni samo ni dalje nije jasno kako mozes da dokazes i kojom metodom da li je to novo misicno vlakno, tj. da li je hiperplazirano... kako je moguce videti multipliciranje vlakna ? Nisi valjda mislio preko nmr...? Daj neki link koji opisuje koju su metodu koristili pri toj studiji i evo ja verujem odmah i ulazem izvinjenje ako treba :-)

stvarno s neverovatan covek
EDNOMTERIJOM se utvrduje hyperplazija
cuj lecenje ramena metodama
ok
kako je doslo onda do hyperplazije

muscle hypertrophy the best, scientists from Dr. Gonyea's laboratory found that lifting speed had the highest correlation to changes in muscle mass (i.e., cats which lifted the weight in a slow and deliberate manner made greater muscle mass gains than cats that lifted ballistically) (33).
Rats have also been used to study muscle growth (25,39,47). In a model developed by Japanese researchers (39), rats performed a squat exercise in response to an electrical stimulation. They found that fiber number in the plantaris muscle (a plantar flexor muscle on the posterior side of the leg) increased by 14%. Moreover, an interesting observation has been made in hypertrophied muscle which suggests the occurrence of muscle fiber hyperplasia (13, 17, 28, 47). Individual small fibers have been seen frequently in enlarged muscle. Initially, some researchers believed this to be a sign of muscle fiber atrophy. However, it doesn't make any sense for muscle fibers to atrophy while the muscle as a whole hypertrophies. Instead, it seems more sensible to attribute this phenomenon to de novo formation of muscle fibers (i.e., these are newly made fibers). I believe this is another piece of evidence, albeit indirect, which supports the occurrence of muscle fiber hyperplasia.
EXERCISE-INDUCED GROWTH IN HUMANS
The main problem with human studies to determine if muscle fiber hyperplasia contributes to muscle hypertrophy is the inability to make direct counts of human muscle fibers. Just the mere chore of counting hundreds of thousands of muscle fibers is enough to make one forget hopes of graduating! For instance, one study determined that the tibialis anterior muscle (on the front of the leg) contains approximately 160,000 fibers! Imagine counting 160,000 fibers (37), for just one muscle! The biceps brachii muscle likely contains 3 or 4 times that number!
So how do human studies come up with evidence for hyperplasia? Well, it's arrived at in an indirect fashion. For instance, one study showed that elite bodybuilders and powerlifters had arm circumferences 27% greater than normal sedentary controls yet the size (i.e., cross-sectional area) of athlete's muscle fibers (in the triceps brachii muscle) were not different than the control group (47). Nygaard and Neilsen (35) did a cross-sectional study in which they found that swimmers had smaller Type I and IIa fibers in the deltoid muscle when compared to controls despite the fact that the overall size of the deltoid muscle was greater. Larsson and Tesch (29) found that bodybuilders possessed thigh circumference measurements 19% greater than controls yet the average size of their muscle fibers were not different from the controls. Furthermore, Alway et al. (3) compared the biceps brachii muscle in elite male and female bodybuilders. These investigators showed that the cross-sectional area of the biceps muscle was correlated to both fiber area and number. Other studies, on the other hand, have demonstrated that bodybuilders have larger fibers instead of a greater number of fibers when compared to a control population (23,30,36). Some scientists have suggested that the reason many bodybuilders or other athletes have muscle fibers which are the same size (or smaller) versus untrained controls is due to a greater genetic endowment of muscle fibers. That is, they were born with more fibers. If that was true, then the intense training over years and decades performed by elite bodybuilders has produced at best average size fibers. That means, some bodybuilders were born with a bunch of below average size fibers and training enlarged them to average size. I don't know about you, but I'd find that explanation rather tenuous.
show no change in fiber number despite significant increases in muscle mass (4,18,19,23,26,30,36,41). Is it possible that certain muscles can increase fiber number more so than others? Maybe. Can any Joe Schmoe off the street who lifts weights to get in better shape increase the number of fibers for instance in their biceps? Probably not. What about the elite bodybuilder who at 5'8" tall is ripped at a body weight of 250 lbs.? Are his large muscles purely the result of muscle fiber hypertrophy? I think it would be extremely naive to think that the massive size attained by elite bodybuilders is due solely to fiber hypertrophy! There is nothing mystical about forming new muscle fibers. Despite the contention that fiber number is constant once you're born (18,19), we now have an abundance of evidence which shows that muscle fiber number can increase. Besides, there is nothing magical at birth which says that now that you're out of the womb, you can no longer make more muscle fibers! A mechanism exists for muscle fiber hyperplasia and there is plenty of reason to believe that

itd itd ti
inace su izvori nista...evo..slobodno im pisi pa se izinjavaj :D :D

REFERENCES
1. Alway, S. E., P. K. Winchester, M. E. Davis, and W. J. Gonyea. Regionalized adaptations and muscle fiber proliferation in stretch-induced enlargement. J. Appl. Physiol. 66(2): 771-781, 1989.
2. Alway, S. E., W. J. Gonyea, and M. E. Davis. Muscle fiber formation and fiber hypertrophy during the onset of stretch-overload. Am. J. Physiol. (Cell Physiol.). 259: C92-C102, 1990.
3. Alway, S.E., W.H. Grumbt, W.J. Gonyea, and J. Stray-Gundersen. Contrasts in muscle and myofibers of elite male and female bodybuilders. J. Appl. Physiol. 67(1): 24-31, 1989.
4. Antonio, J. and W. J. Gonyea. The role of fiber hypertrophy and hyperplasia in intermittently stretched avian muscle. J. Appl. Physiol. 74(4): 1893-1898, 1993.
5. Antonio, J. and W.J. Gonyea. Progressive stretch overload of avian muscle results in muscle fiber hypertrophy prior to fiber hyperplasia. J. Appl. Physiol., 75(3): 1263-1271, 1993.
6. Antonio, J. and W. J. Gonyea. Muscle fiber splitting in stretch-enlarged avian muscle. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 26(8): 973-977, 1994.
7. Antonio, J. and W.J. Gonyea. Skeletal muscle fiber hyperplasia. Med. Sci Sports. Exerc. 25(12): 1333-1345, 1993.
8. Antonio, J. and W.J. Gonyea. Ring fibers express ventricular myosin in stretch overloaded quail muscle. Acta. Physiol. Scand. 152: 429-430, 1994.
9. Armstrong, R. B., P. Marum, P. Tullson, and C. W. Saubert. Acute hypertrophic response of skeletal muscle to removal of synergists. J. Appl. Physiol. 46: 835-842, 1979.
10. Ashmore, C. R. and P. J. Summers. Stretch-induced growth of chicken wing muscles: myofibrillar proliferation. Am. J. Physiol. 51: C93-C97, 1981.
11. Bischoff, R. Interaction between satellite cells and skeletal muscle fibers. Development. 109: 943-952, 1990.
12. Carlson, B. M. The regeneration of skeletal muscle. Am. J. Anat. 137: 119-150, 1973.
13. Chalmers, G.R., R. R. Roy, and V. R. Edgerton. Variation and limitations in fiber enzymatic and size responses in hypertrophied muscle. J. Appl. Physiol. 73(2): 631-641, 1992.
14. Costill, D. L., E. F. Coyle, W. F. Fink, G. R. Lesmes, and F. A. Witzmann. Adaptations in skeletal muscle following strength training. J. Appl. Physiol. 46(1): 96-99, 1979.
15. Cote, C., J. A. Simoneau, P. Lagasse, M. Boulay, M. C. Thibault, M. Marcotte, and C. Bouchard. Isokinetic strength training protocols: do they induce skeletal muscle fiber hypertrophy? Arch. Phys. Med. Rehabil. 69: 281-285, 1988.
16. Darr, K. C. and E. Schultz. Exercise induced satellite cell activation in growing and mature skeletal muscle. J. Appl. Physiol. 63: 1816-1821, 1987.
17. Giddings, C. J. and W. J. Gonyea. Morphological observations supporting muscle fiber hyperplasia following weight-lifting exercise in cats. Anat. Rec. 233: 178-195, 1992.
18. Gollnick, P. D., B. F. Timson, R. L. Moore, and M. Riedy. Muscular enlargement and numbers of fibers in skeletal muscles of rats. J. Appl. Physiol. 50: 936-943, 1981. 19. Gollnick, P. D., D. Parsons, M. Riedy, and R. L. Moore. Fiber number and size in overloaded chicken anterior latissimus dorsi muscle. J. Appl. Physiol. 1983; 40: 1292-1297, 1983.
20. Gonyea, W. J. and G. C. Ericson. An experimental model for the study of exercise-induced muscle hypertrophy. J. Appl. Physiol. 40: 630-633, 1976.
21. Gonyea, W. J. Role of exercise in inducing increases in skeletal muscle fiber number. J. Appl. Physiol. 48(3): 421-426, 1980.
22. Gonyea, W. J., D. G. Sale, F. B. Gonyea, and A. Mikesky. Exercise induced increases in muscle fiber number. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 55: 137-141, 1986.
23. Häggmark, T., E. Jansson, and B. Svane. Cross-sectional area of the thigh muscle in man measured by computed tomography. Scand. J. Clin. Lab. Invest. 38: 355-360, 1978.
24. Hather, B. M., P. A. Tesch, P. Buchanan, and G. A. Dudley. Influence of eccentric actions on skeletal muscle adaptations to resistance training. Acta. Physiol. Scand. 143: 177-185, 1991.
25. Ho, K. W., R. R. Roy, C. D. Tweedle, W. W. Heusner, W. D. Van Huss, and R. E. Carrow. Skeletal muscle fiber splitting with weight-lifting exercise in rats. Am. J. Anat. 157: 433-440, 1980.
26. Holly, R. G., J. G. Barnett, C. R. Ashmore, R. G. Taylor, and P. A. Mole. Stretch-induced growth in chicken wing muscles: a new model of stretch hypertrophy. Am. J. Physiol. 238: C62-C71, 1980.
27. Holloszy, J. O. and F. W. Booth. Biochemical adaptations to endurance exercise in muscle. Rev. Physiol. 273-291, 1976.
28. Kennedy, J. M., B. R. Eisenberg, S. Kamel, L. J. Sweeney, and R. Zak. Nascent muscle fibers appearance in overloaded chicken slow tonic muscle. Am. J. Anat. 181: 203-205, 1988.
29. Larsson, L. and P.A. Tesch. Motor unit fibre density in extremely hypertrophied skeletal muscles in man. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 55: 130-136, 1986.
30. MacDougall, J. D., D. G. Sale, S. E. Alway, and J. R. Sutton. Muscle fiber number in biceps brachii in bodybuilders and control subjects. J. Appl. Physiol. 57: 1399-1403, 1984.
31. MacDougall, J.D. Morphological changes in human skeletal muscle following strength training and immobilization. In: Human Muscle Power (pp. 269-288). N.L. Jones, N. McCartney, A. J. McComas (Eds.). Human Kinetics Publisher, Inc. Champaign, Illinois, 1986.
32. McCormick, K. M. and E. Schultz. Mechanisms of nascent fiber formation during avian skeletal muscle hypertrophy. Dev. Biol. 150: 319-334, 1992.
33. Mikesky, A. E., W. Matthews, C. J. Giddings, and W. J. Gonyea. Muscle enlargement and exercise performance in the cat. J. Appl. Sport Sci. Res. 3: 85-92, 1989.
34. Mikesky, A. E., C. J. Giddings, W. Matthews, and W. J. Gonyea. Changes in muscle fiber size and composition in response to heavy-resistance exercise. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 23(9): 1042-1049, 1991.
35. Nygaard, E. and E. Nielsen. Skeletal muscle fiber capillarisation with extreme endurance training in man. In Eriksson B, Furberg B (Eds). Swimming Medicine IV(vol. 6, pp. 282-293). University Park Press, Baltimore, 1978.
36. Schantz, P., E. Randall Fox, P. Norgen, and A. Tyden. The relationship between mean muscle fiber area and the muscle cross-sectional area of the thigh in subjects with large differences in thigh girth. Acta Physiol. Scand. 113: 537-539, 1981.
37. Sjöström, M., J. Lexell, A. Eriksson, and C. C. Taylor. Evidence of fiber hyperplasia in human skeletal muscles from healthy young men? Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 62: 301-304, 1992.
38. Sola, O. M., D. L. Christensen, and A. W. Martin. Hypertrophy and hyperplasia of adult chicken anterior latissimus dorsi muscles following stretch with and without denervation. Exp. Neurol. 41: 76-100, 1973.
39. Tamaki, T., S. Uchiyama, and S. Nakano. A weight-lifting exercise model for inducing hypertrophy in the hindlimb muscles of rats. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 24(8): 881-886, 1992.
40. Tesch, P. A. and L. Larsson. Muscle hypertrophy in bodybuilders. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 49: 301-306, 1982.
41. Timson, B. F., B. K. Bowlin, G. A. Dudenhoeffer, and J. B. George. Fiber number, area and composition of mouse soleus following enlargement. J. Appl. Physiol. 58: 619-624, 1985.
42. Vaughan, H. S. and G. Goldspink. Fibre number and fibre size in surgically overloaded muscle. J. Anat. 129(2): 293-303, 1979.
43. Winchester, P. K., M. E. Davis, S. E. Alway, and W. J. Gonyea. Satellite cell activation of the stretch-enlarged anterior latissimus dorsi muscle of the adult quail. Am. J. Physiol. 260: C206-C212, 1991.
44. Winchester, P. K. and W. J. Gonyea. Regional injury and teminal differentiation of satellite cells in stretched avian slow tonic muscle. Dev. Biol. 151: 459-472, 1992.
45. Wong, T. S. and F. W. Booth. Protein metabolism in rat gastrocnemius muscle after stimulated chronic concentric exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 69(5): 1709-1717, 1990.
46. Wong, T. S. and F. W. Booth. Protein metabolism in rat tibialis anterior muscle after stimulated chronic eccentric exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 69(5): 1718-1724, 1990.
47. Yamada, S., N. Buffinger, J. Dimario, and R. C. Strohman. Fibroblast growth factor is stored in fiber extracellular matrix and plays a role in regulating muscle hypertrophy. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 21(5): S173-S180, 1989.


Van mreže Pirat

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« Odgovor #59 poslato: April 22, 2016, 08:46:55 pre podne »
He he he pa ovaj tekst se zasniva opet na samo teorijskom zakljucku tipa da ne verujemo da je do tolikog rasta doslo samo zahvaljujucu postojecim vlaknima nego eto , hiperplazija ... izvini Pedjos ali opet samo spekulacija... bez tvrdih dokaza... ajde da ne duzimo jbg, hvala u svakom slucaju na izdvojenom vremenu !